Sorry if I’m not the first to bring this up. It seems like a simple enough solution.
People did stop buying them. Their consumer GPU shipments are the lowest they’ve been in over a decade.
But consumer habits aren’t the reason for the high prices. It’s the exploding AI market. Nvidia makes even higher margins on chips they allocate to parts for machine learning in data centers. As it is, they can’t make enough chips to fill the demand for AI.
Just like Chrome will stop being anti-consumer when people stop using it. Or Blizzard will stop being terrible if people stop buying their games. People are not very good at this whole “voting with your wallet” thing.
It’s almost as if people are fucking idiots.
The unfortunate truth ain’t it
What’s funny is that I vote with my wallet, and I tell my friends about it and they think I’m the weird one for not having a Facebook account, not having insta or Twitter, or shopping at Amazon or Walmart or Chick-fil-A.
Then I explain it and that say, “that makes sense” and not 30 minutes later are telling me about how I should look up somebody on tiktok, which I don’t have, or asking about windows 11, which I don’t use, or telling me I should buy a Tesla, which I don’t want, and its for all the same reasons I keep explaining to them.
You vote with your wallet. My vote goes for people over countries and corporations.
As a side effect, countries and corporations have ensured that anyone who doesn’t comply gets ostracized.
Almost like people with more money than sense can outvote everyone else.
How do you even count “people who didn’t buy product X”? There could be millions more, either out of revolt or sheer disinterest, but that just doesn’t matter for the companies selling a product. The only votes that end up counting are the ones from people buying.
People really need to drop that saying, because the market was never a democracy and it will never be. Hell, companies can even ignore the paying customers to do something else entirely because the ones who have the most money are the investors.
The good thing about voting with your wallet is that people with more money get more votes, the way god intended.
They are also not very good in voting for politicians that actually act in their interest. It baffles me every day… what do you guys think is the reason for this?
undereducation. The missing skill here is critical thinking, and critical thinking is something that you don’t usually get a lot of practice with until college. The conservative strategy of raising the price of college, refusing to spend money on student aid, and demonizing college professors as liberal brainwashers has been quite effective in keeping their constituents away from higher education.
I think quality of education is a big one too, but as long as teachers are underpaid, schools underfunded, understaffed and stretched as far as they can go, things can’t improve ☹️
I agree completely! Underfunding of public schools is all part of the plan. Congressional Republicans get to send their kids to private school while their impoverished constituents are forced to send their kids to public schools that are literally falling apart. Most of those kids learn to hate school, so they don’t go to college. The cycle repeats.
Almost like voting with your wallet doesn’t actually work. Or only works in same way ‘communism’ and ‘well regulated free market capitalism’ concepts work… in theory only.
It works a lot better when there are many choices, fair competition in the market, and the traits being voted on are painfully obvious.
Because the free market is bullshit. It always results in a few major companies hand-shaking and fucking over consumers. Smaller businesses almost never have a chance and are just as easily bought out. To win in this capitalist iteration of society, you have to be the worst and greediest you can be. Add in the fact most people prefer to remain ignorant or are just generally apathetic from years of conditioning, and ‘voting with your wallet’ rarely really works. You should still do it though of course.
It’s a struggle. Boycotts are historically very hard to be effective and I feel that the Internet has made it even more difficult. Protests need their own marketing and companies at an international scale feel almost immune from any public movements.
That said, voting with your wallet, like boycotts, do work. They just need people to be consistent and informed. But it does work.
Look at Star Wars Battlefront 2 (the 2nd). Prerelease it got over -600k downvotes and substantially hurt the game to the point that they reworked the entire system. If gamers had just bought the game and played anyway, EA wouldn’t have needed to actually rework it. But they were so worried about the performance of the game that they actually made a change.
Same for Sonic the Hedgehog. He looked so, so terrible that the fear of losing money made him get fixed.
Granted, these two are examples of something becoming changed before full release, but in spirit the effect is the same. Corporation scared to lose money so changes are made to help make money. Voting with your wallet does work. It just needs to be marketed right. Edit: and I completely forgot the context here, which is that for something like tech, while consumers can have a choice, corporations do too. That’s where the struggle comes in
Well… I bought an AMD card, I have been using Firefox for a few years now, and I’m not buying anything from Blizzard. There are literally dozens like me… Unfortunately, only a small number of people know these things and have these views and care enough to boycott. These companies will continue to do what they do until there is sufficient pushback (if ever) to make it less profitable than alternatives.
Dozens + 1, friend!
The browser one is especially bad since there are plenty of good options and they all cost nothing except the most minal amount of time to switch to
No, actually I don’t need to buy the worse product. Privacy considerations are part of the package, just like price and performance are.
I use firefox, because in the performance - privacy - price consideration it beats chrome.
I have a Nvidia graphics card, because being able to run CUDA applications at home beats AMD.
You don’t have to do anything, but you’re still encouraging this behavior no matter how you choose to look at it. If that doesn’t bother you, then idk why you’re even replying.
What other company besides AMD makes GPUs, and what other company makes GPUs that are supported by machine learning programs?
Exactly, Nvidia doesn’t have real competition. In gaming sure, but no one is actually competiting with CUDA.
AMD has ROCm which tries to get close. I’ve been able to get some CUDA applications running on a 6700xt, although they are noticeably slower than running on a comparable NVidia card. Maybe we’ll see more projects adding native ROCm support now that AMD is trying to cater to the enterprise market.
They kinda have that, yes. But it was not supported on windows until this year and is in general not officially supported on consumer graphics cards.
Still hoping it will improve, because AMD ships with more VRAM at the same price point, but ROCm feels kinda half assed when looking at the official support investment by AMD.
I don’t own any nvidia hardware out of principal, but ROCm is no where even close to cuda as far as mindshare goes. At this point I rather just have a cuda->rocm shim I can use, in the same was as directx->vulkan does with proton. Trying to fight for mindshare sucks, so trying to get every dev to support it just feel like a massive uphill battle.
My Intel Arc 750 works quite well at 1080 and is perfectly sufficient for me. If people need hyper refresh rates and resolution and all all the bells well then have fun paying for it. But if you need functional, competent gaming, at US$200 Arc is nice.
AMD supports ML, its just a lot of smaller projects are made with CUDA backends, and dont have developers there to switch from CUDA to OpenCL or similar.
Some of the major ML libraries that used to built around CUDA like Tensorflow has already made non CUDA branches, but thats only because tensorflow is open source, ubiquitous in the scene and litterally has google behind it.
ML for more niche uses basically is in the chicken and egg situation. People wont use other gpus for ML because theres no dev working on non CUDA backends. No ones working on non CUDA backends because the devs end up buying Nvidia, which is basically what Nvidia wants.
There are a bunch of followers but a lack in of leaders to move the direction in a more open compute environment.
Huh, my bad. I was operating off of old information. They’ve actually already released the sdk and apis I was referring to.
No joke, probably intel. The cards won’t hold a candle to a 4090 but they’re actually pretty decent for both gaming and ML tasks. AMD definitely needs to speed up the timeline on their new ML api tho.
Problem with Intel cards is that they’re a relatively recent release, and not very popular yet. It’s going to be a while before games optimize for them.
For example, the ARC cards aren’t supported for Starfield. Like they might run but not as well as they could if Starfield had optimized for them too. But the card’s only been out a year.
The more people use Arc the quicker it becomes mainstream and optimised for but arc is still considered “beta” and slow in peoples minds even though there were huge improvements and the old benchmarks don’t hold any value anymore. chicken and Egg problem. :/
Disclaimer: i have an arc 770 16GB because every other sensible upgrade path would have cost 3x-4x more for the same performance uplift (and I’m not buying an 8GB card in 2023+) but now I’m starting to get really angry at people blaming Intel for “not supporting this new game” - all that gpus should support is the graphics API to the letter of the specification, all this day-1 patching and driver hotfixes to make games run decent is bs. Games need to feed the API and GPUs need to process what the API tells it to, nothing more nothing less. It’s a complex issue and i think Nvidia held the monopoly for too long, everything is optimised for Nvidia at the cost of making it worse for everyone else.
Isn’t the entire point of DirectX and OpenGL that it abstracts away the GPU-specific details? You write code once and it works on any graphics card that supports the standard? It sounds like games are moving towards what we had in the old days, where they have specific code per graphics card?
I think the issue started with gpu-architecture tailored technologies like physx or gameworks but im probably wrong. For example I have nothing against physx but it only runs on nvidia cores natively (fast), i have an issue when there’s a monetary incentive or exclusive partnering of nvidia and game studios - so if you want to play the game with all the features, bells and whistles, it was designed with you would need to also buy their overpriced (and current gen: underperforming) gpus just because you’d be missing out on features or performance on any other gpu architecture.
If this trend continues everybody will need a €1k+ gpu from nvidia and a €1k+ gpu from AMD and hot-swap between them depending on what game you wish to play.
I jumped to team red this build.
I have been very happy with my 7900XTX.
4K max settings / FPS on every game I’ve thrown at it.
I don’t play the latest games, so I guess I could hit a wall if I play the recent AAA releases, but many times they simply don’t interest me.Apple. Their own processors have both GPUs and AI accelerators. But for some reason, the industry refuses to use them.
The problem is, the ML people will continue to buy Nvidia. They don’t have a choice.
Even a lot of CG professional users are locked into NVIDIA due to software using CUDA. It sucks.
In this particular case, it’s a bit more complicated.
I suspect the majority of 30x0 & 40x0 card sales continue to be for non-gaming or hybrid uses. I suspect that if pure gamers stopped buying them today for months, it wouldn’t make much of a difference to their bottom line.
Until there’s reasonable competition for training AI models at reasonable prices, people are going to continue buying their cards because it’s the most cost-effective thing – even at the outrageous prices.
China is still buying gimped cards because what other choice do they have
Exactly. The only other choices here are to buy used with a risk or wait longer to upgrade.
Funnily enough I just, like an hour before reading this post bought an AMD card. And I’ve been using NVIDIA since the early 00’s.
For me it’s good linux support. Tired of dealing with their drivers.
Will losing me as a customer make a difference to NVIDIA? Nope. Do I feel good about ditching a company that doesn’t treat me well as a consumer? Absolutely!
Have a 3060ti, was thinking of moving to Linux. Is there no support from Nvidia?
I ran my 1060 just fine for a few year. Nvidia has an official, but proprietary driver that might not run well on some distro’s. Personally I haven’t had any issues, though it would be better to stick with xorg and not wayland. Wayland support on nvidia I’ve heard isn’t great, but it does work
Absolutely indeed! I’ll never buy an Nvidia card because of how anti-customer they are. It started with them locking out PCI passthrough when I was building a gaming Linux machine like ten years ago.
I wonder if moving people towards the idea of just following the companies that don’t treat them with contempt is an angle that will work. I know Steph Sterling’s video on “consumer” vs “customer” helped crystallize that attitude in me.
Suddenly your video card is as mundane and trivial a solved problem as your keyboard or mouse.
It just works and you never have to even think about it.
To even consider that a reality as someone who’s used Linux since Ubuntu 8.10… I feel spoiled.
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There are also games that don’t render a square mile of a city in photorealistic quality.
Graphical fidelity has not materially improved since the days of Crysis 1, 16 years ago. The only two meaningful changes for how difficult games should be to run in that time are that 1440p & 2160p have become more common, and raytracing. But consoles being content to run at dynamic resolutions and 30fps combined with tools developed to make raytracting palatable (DLSS) have made developers complacent to have their games run like absolute garbage even on mid spec hardware that should have no trouble running 1080p/60fps.
Destiny 2 was famously well optimized at launch. I was running an easy 1440p/120fps in pretty much all scenarios maxed out on a 1080 Ti. The more new zones come out, the worse performance seems to be in each, even though I now have a 3090.
I am loving BG3 but the entire city in act 3 can barely run 40fps on a 3090, and it is not an especially gorgeous looking game. The only thing I can really imagine is that maxed out the character models and armor models do look quite nice. But a lot of environment art is extremely low-poly. I should not have to turn on DLSS to get playable framerates in a game like this with a Titan class card.
Nvidia and AMD just keep cranking the power on the cards, they’re now 3+ slot behemoths to deal with all the heat, which also means cranking the price. They also seem to think 30fps is acceptable, which it just… is not. Especially not in first person games.
W/r/t Baldur’s Gate 3, I don’t think the bottleneck is the GPU. Act 3 is incredibly ambitious in terms of NPC density, and AI is one of those things that’s still very hard to parallelize.
I’m currently part of the problem and this is so fucking true. Games have really stopped pushing the envelope because they either have to be cross platform compatible or they’re not even PC first.
3D mark is the only thing I could find to put a dent in my 3060ti
Why would datacenters be buying consumer grade cards? Nvidia has the A series cards for enterprise that are basically identical to consumer ones but with features useful for enterprise unlocked.
I think you mean their Tesla line of cards? The A (e.g. A100) stands for the generation name (e.g. Ada or Ampere, don’t remember which one got the A), and that same name applies to both the consumer line (GeForce and Quadro) and the data’s centre cards.
The hardware isn’t identical either. I don’t know all the differences, but I know at least that the data centre cards have SXM connectors that greatly increase data throughput.
You know that, I know that. Most people browsing here know that. Anyone you speak to who buys GPUs would probably also agree. Still not gonna change.
Similarly if nvidia wanted me to buy their cards they’d get their drivers sorted out. While plugging in an amd card just works with literally no setup from me, nvidia will get no money from me
All of Lemmy and all of Reddit could comply with this without it making a difference.
And the last card I bought was a 1060, a lot of us are already basically doing this.
You have not successfully unionized gaming hardware customers with this post.
One less sale is victory enough. It’s one more than before the post.
And as soon as they have any competitors we might consider it
Well when AMD finally catches up with nVidia and offers a high-end GPU with FG and decent Ray Tracing, I’ll gladly switch. I’d love nothing more than to have an all-AMD PC.
well that won’t happen because they are still the best option for compatibility unless you’re using linux
Works great for me. I installed the Nvidia package and everything simply works, and the driver is automatically updated when I do a system upgrade.
And AMD still doesn’t have a solid answer to CUDA on consumer GPUs, as far as I know.
oh don’t get me wrong, when nvidia is an option for linux it seems to work ok, while maybe an older driver, but some distros are a pain to get the nvidia driver installed, or are designed around AMD like ChimeraOS. Not sure if you can still add nvidia to that distro, I haven’t tried yet.
I was originally eyeballing to get 3080 pre-covid then everything goes to the moon with crypto, can’t even buy 2080 under 1k. So I stuck with my 1080, some shit happened to my MB so I had to upgrade and that’s where I decide to switch to all AMD, took me another couple months before I finally snatch a 6800XT at amd direct, it was not cheap($812 CAD after tax) but like almost 500 cheaper than what you can find on any other vendor tries to gouge you with their bundles.
Quite happy with that and their software. BUT, there are some weird crash related the screen sleep after certain version of driver so I turn off screen manually. A newer driver seems to fix that about a month or 2 ago. I will wait a couple update to revert my screen sleep policy again. Most modern game runs quite well.
Honest the newer 7900 ones are priced too high so I might either skip entire gen or wait until 8900 is out then get a good 7900 XT for cheaper price. Basically I have no intention to buy any thing priced higher than 800 pre-tax.
With cheap ram and everything else, there is really no reason for GPU to still keep at that price point. Remember 3080 was priced $699? Yep, that’s where I get my budget number of <800CAD.
I went with best AMD I could get at the time, 7900xtx sapphire nitro. For gaming, it’s already really good, I can use raytracing, although not on best settings on some games,but in most cases I can just max out the settings.
Main complaint atm is that self hosting AI is much more annoying than it would be on nvidia. I usually get everything to work eventually, but it always needs that extra level of technical fuckery.
