He did say he wanted Ukraine to be an Israel. Targeting civilians is a must to achieve that.
Very normal behavior that definitely isn’t a warcrime or anything. We aren’t targetting civilian aircraft they just might be hit haha
There is no justification for attacking on civilians.
In the linked article no one suggests attacks on civilians. Rather it reads as a way to avoid unnecessary casulties.
What a clickbait headline.
Sure but that’s a threat and a weak cover. The logistics of covering Russian airspace with so many drones that a civilian aircraft would just happen into one is ridiculous. This is an incredibly common tactic.
Yeah this is what he actually said…
“Today, we want to warn every airline that uses Russian airspace, every insurer, and everyone who still uses Russia’s key airports: Russian airspace is becoming completely unsafe.”
“Ukraine does not threaten civilian aviation as such – not a single civilian aircraft. There will simply be drones in Russia’s skies on a scale that has to be taken into account”
“We in Ukraine do not want innocent lives to be lost. That is why we are warning our partners: the safe days in Russia’s skies are over. It is important that this is heard by the ambassadors of countries represented here in Ukraine, as well as by ambassadors working in Moscow.”
“Ukraine does not threaten civilian aviation as such – not a single civilian aircraft. There will simply be drones in Russia’s skies on a scale that has to be taken into account”
bro, you gotta learn to read imperialese. this is imperial speak to say we’re going to kill civilians. didn’t you learn form the “enhanced interrogation” scandal from the gringo fascist empire?
It’s actually closer to Irans playbook, making the Strait unnavigable. Notice that he explicitly called out insurers in the speech. He wants to exercise political control over the Russian airspace and he’s using drones to do it. “Too risky to travel” means no travel. That’s not killing civilians.
It should also be completely fair to say, “hey… this is an active war zone. You probably shouldn’t fly here.” At a certain point, the risk is something that the airliner chose to accept. It’s not that Ukraine would target them. It’s that you’re in a fucking war zone, know the risks. Be glad you even got a warning for what should be common sense.
The sky above all of Russia is a bit different to a narrow (relatively) strait of water.
Sure, but why at all mention insurers then?
I’m not saying approach is effective, Just that it seems like that would be the approach. Why else would he assume insurers give a shit?
If you can’t get the cargo and plane insured for the trip, aren’t you going to factor in the increased risk profile before you take off?
That dynamic seems familiar, doesn’t it? Again, the strait.
How do “russian airspace will become completely unsafe” und “do not threaten civilian aviation” together?
War is dangerous. Ukraine has been attacked and is fighting back. They’re warning people that the area they are fighting in is dangerous and they don’t want anyone to get hurt.
Do you assume Ukraine should prioritize commercial airline safety over their own sovereignty and their own commercial airlines, which have consistently been in danger for years?
There is not a safe way to conduct war. I’m sure Zelensky would prefer to stop the fighting, but that option currently means the death of Ukraine entirely.
Civilian Aircraft wont be deliberately targeted, but there will be so many munitions flying arround unnanounced they would be wise to re-route
soooooooooo, i didn’t punch you, your face intercepted my fist kind of mental gymnastics?
Gotta be honest if you’re dumb enough to walk straight through the middle of an active fistfight and happen to get punched in the face, that’s your fault.
Are you trying to double-down on the Zionist rhetoric? Genuine question, this is the same thing Israelis say about Palestinians.
you’re kinda victim blaming civilians being terrorized in a warzone
glad to know i can punch you and it will be your fault, will do if i have the chance
We in Ukraine do not want innocent lives to be lost.
Well that’s just an outright and blatant lie.
But .ml needs to hate Ukraine, what are the supposed to do, listen to facts?
listening to facts are the reason why anyone who reads will understand why ukraine is in the wrong.
the american congress banned weapons going to ukraine back in 2018 because of its neo nazi proclivities; how are you almost a decade slower than congress?!!!
Because you’ve got no evidence, because you’re a lying sack of shit and you know it
Because you’ve got no evidence, because you’re a lying sack of shit and you know it
you’re right, it’s not evidence – it’s literally proof in writing in congress’ records for the public to see for themselves.
this is a fact but you chose to ignore it and continue believing whatever wikipedia, fox news, npr, cbc, abc, bbc, le monde, der speigel tell you to believe no matter how easily disprovably false it is – you’re just another maga but w bigger echo chamber and an intercontinental reach serving the us empire w/o realizing it.
do the world a favor and wake tf up!
Removed by mod
It’s almost like they are the ones who hate/ignore facts. Or more honestly just wanting to troll and stir up drama since that’s the majority of their comments
Because you’ve got no evidence, because you’re a lying sack of shit and you know it
Because you’ve got no evidence
Are you serious?
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript
- Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia.
- Internationalist 360°, 2022–2024: History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
- https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/40th-periodic-report-human-rights-situation-ukraine-treatment-prisoners
- https://www.npr.org/2023/01/31/1152743054/human-rights-watch-ukraine-landmines
- CNN coverage of Donbas in 2014 https://xcancel.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
- https://mronline.org/2023/07/30/russia-donbass-and-the-reality-of-the-conflict-in-ukraine/
- https://www.kanekoa.news/p/osce-reports-reveal-ukraine-started
- HRW https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
- Donbas documentary 2016 https://youtube.com/watch?v=bN68OfFKaWs
- Ukraine in Donbas https://ingaza.wordpress.com/2022/08/10/what-ive-seen-of-ukraines-war-crimes-against-civilians-in-the-donbass-over-the-years/
- Poroshenko saying the quiet part out loud https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHWHqj8g7Bk
NATO expansion:
- George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner
- Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia
- Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
NATO in general:- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
You’re losing and you know it.
It’s almost like they are the ones who hate/ignore facts. Or more honestly just wanting to troll and stir up drama since that’s the majority of their comments
Removed by mod
Russia does…
That’s not justification for killing more civilians that’s psychotic.
If airlines care about not losing planes and people they will stop flying over Russia so it would have the ideal result of shutting down flights there. Ethically it’s a bit fucked but it’s likely an effective way to apply more pressure. And it’s not like Russia can’t just stop all of this.
If airlines cared about stopping fascism in the USA they would stop flying and not rename all the lakes or the gulf on their maps. Guess what capitalist businesses only care about one thing.
I was talking more about them being concerned about possibly losing their property and thus profits, not that they had any moral compass. I’m not sure what the US has to do with it though, these companies are owned by people from all sorts of countries.
Airlines are a big part of getting the names changed of all the lakes etc. They changed the maps on all their planes etc. They could have easily just threatened to boycott not fly in the USA and Trump would have stood down but they couldn’t stand losing any profits.
I need you to understand the line you are choosing to cross here. You are now openly, in front of everybody, shrugging and vaguely justifying open mass terror against civilians.
No you’re right, I think I was speaking partly out of exhaustion from this whole mess, I’d rather they just stopped.
Russia tried to prevent the war with the Minsk agreements. Angela Merkel admitted that it was a ruse to arm Ukraine. What is Russia supposed to do now? It was fooled plenty of times already.
Well, that includes Russians.
Yes it does. It includes both Russian civilians and Ukrainian civilians
No idea why I’ve been downvoted. Deliberately killing any civilians is a war crime. End of point.
Because your original comment says “well Russia does it …” kindof seems like you’re implying an “eye for an eye” situation is just here. If your comment was focusing on Russian civilian death, too, it doesn’t really seem like it, kinda more like you’re trying to act like Russia kills way more Ukrainian civilians and that makes it ok that Ukraine can kill Russian civilians, because “well Russia does it too …”
If that wasn’t your intention then I apologize but you must see how it comes off that way.
I guess I’ve been misundestood. English does that to me time to time. What I meant is, there is no justification for attacking on civilians no matter which side you are on, that includes Russian civilians. Definitely didn’t want to mean eye for an eye. That’s terrible.
Thanks for the heads up.
Well hey, your English has me convinced! I’d much rather give tips on English than explain why killing civilians, no matter who, is bad 😅 rock on friend !
I fly a lot over Russia from Europe to China with Chinese airlines because it’s so much faster. If they even come close to downing a Chinese commercial airliner, it will change the complexion of the war.
There are like 2 flights per day using Turkish airlines to Saint Petersburg alone, from Istanbul. Turkey managed to amass the largest military in Europe silently plus the massive industry. Shooting one will end well also /s
Mh-370 for everyone.
Tldr the statement is basically this
So much brain rot in here. Drones can’t target planes at 30,000 ft. Russian air defenses can though. If Ukrainian drones litter the skies, any twitchy finger at a SAM can down an airliner just like MH-370. That is what the warning is about. God damn
planes at 30000m do not have to touch the ground to land?
Removed by mod
Ahh someone who actually read the article instead of reacting to the headline lol
Removed by mod
Because that’s how the world works, one single persons says No and history is written, the world changes.
Russia entered the Ukrainian civil war precisely because it sees NATO’s encirclement as an existential threat. As such, Russia will not cease until its strategic goals are met. Kiev could end the war as well by ceding the Donbass region and agreeing to NATO neutrality. The Donbass region already is more pro-Russia than pro-Ukraine, even if Kiev succeeded in pushing Russia back to the pre-2022 borders, they’d still have to contend with the seperatists they have been fighting since 2014, and failed to contain. Cozying up to NATO and agreeing to host missiles that target Russian cities, with less than a 10 minute travel time, is precisely what caused Russia to shift from diplomacy to active intervention.
Oh no an opinion this community generally disagrees with, moderators SECURE THE ECHO CHAMBER AT ONCE!
Inb4 ban, I actually do appreciate a lot of ML principals and philosophies. Lemmy is just becoming Reddit
they used a slur bro…
Attacks on civilians infrastructure? That sounds very illegal and may have Zelenskyy sent to The Hague.
may have Zelenskyy sent to The Hague.
He’s white, though.
So is Netanyahu, and he has a warrant out. If Zelenskyy starts striking civilian planes with international travelers onboard he’s going to lose support as far as Western public opinion goes and the ICC won’t be far behind.
Kiev was already under scrutiny from western media pre-2022 for their war crimes in the Donbass region. Once the war escalated with Russia entering the war, the same media apparatus flipped 180. I doubt Ukraine attacking civilian planes will lose them support among the west.
a warrant that’s not neither being enforced by any of the countries that promised to support the icc/icj nor pursued since the us empire had the icj prosecutor relieved of duty.
Removed by mod
You guys are so arrogant and have your heads so far up your own asses you cant even conceive of someone disagreeing with you unless they are misinformed or a disingenuous paid troll. You guys wont see reality until it smacks you square in the face.
Not even then. They’ll twist themselves into knots to find a version of reality that paints this inhumanity as something nobody could have known about at the time (and an unreasonable assumption anyway!) or they’ll just deny it forever.
Perhaps you could read the article instead of inferring what was said from a clickbait title.
“Ukraine does not threaten civilian aviation as such – not a single civilian aircraft. There will simply be drones in Russia’s skies on a scale that has to be taken into account”
“We in Ukraine do not want innocent lives to be lost. That is why we are warning our partners: the safe days in Russia’s skies are over.
totally not going to kill civilians, sure.
“Today, we want to warn every airline that uses Russian airspace, every insurer, and everyone who still uses Russia’s key airports: Russian airspace is becoming completely unsafe,” Zelensky said in a post on X that cited his nightly address.
Yes, because these are the words of a leader who definitely intends to do no harm.
Seems like Trump is definitely rubbing off on this guy.
To steal the post of someone hire up this post that shared the entirety of the quote…
“Today, we want to warn every airline that uses Russian airspace, every insurer, and everyone who still uses Russia’s key airports: Russian airspace is becoming completely unsafe.”
“Ukraine does not threaten civilian aviation as such – not a single civilian aircraft. There will simply be drones in Russia’s skies on a scale that has to be taken into account”
“We in Ukraine do not want innocent lives to be lost. That is why we are warning our partners: the safe days in Russia’s skies are over. It is important that this is heard by the ambassadors of countries represented here in Ukraine, as well as by ambassadors working in Moscow.”
You cherry picked one line without context. His statement is a warning that non military flights will be flying through an active war zone, so proceed with caution. It’s not a threat that he plans to attack civilian targets. He definitely intends to do harm, to Russian military and infrastructure, but if civilians put themselves in harms way, they may end up as an accidental casualty. That’s different than some like Putin who specifically targets civilians.
Sounds like Israel’s statements.
We don’t kill any civilians on purpose. We tell just them all the areas where they could be staying might get bombed. It’s their fault for not disappearing in thin air before our bombs turn them into thin air.
Sounds like Israel’s statements.
Because it is
Ukraine have repeatedly targeted civilians both historically in the Donbas and in Russia during the war.
And you’re assuming I didn’t read the rest of it.
He didn’t need to state that first paragraph. Period.
I didn’t say you didn’t read it, but I did say that you were disingenuous for cherry picking part of the quote leaving out the rest of the context. The first paragraph is a fair warning to anyone flying in airspace that is going to get more dangerous. That’s not him saying he’s targeting civilians or that he intends to.
But the final paragraph is him saying that they don’t care if or when they take out a civilian aircraft because they did a warning.
It’s the same as when cops shoot someone while giving themselves plausible deniability
Russia does an the time…
