- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
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I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the best way to refuse to do this?
Say you’re in xyz situation and a cop demands your phone. You say no. They get angry, maybe make some threats (whether true or not), etc.
What is the best way to say no, you aren’t comfortable, come back with a warrant, etc, without pissing them off royally in such a way that things end up worse for you?
in such a way that things end up worse for you?
IANAL. This is what they want you to think, “just do this and it’ll be better for you”. It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it’s the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don’t talk to the police.
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say “I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don’t consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?” That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you’ve made it clear that you’d like to leave as soon as you’re legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They’re gonna do what they’re gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that’s what they’re gonna do. You don’t fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I’m also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you’re who they’re looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
To add to this spending some time in custody is inconvenient, but losing your rights being convicted of something you didn’t even do is more inconvenient. You think you know what to say until you say the wrong thing and start digging a hole.
I hate advice like this because you just say empty terms like “obey lawful commands” after saying to not do anything. The question is how do we do this practically. Cops can lie. They can just say whatever is a lawful command. This is why this sort of advice needs to be more specific.
A good example, presenting your driver’s license for traffic stops. That’s usually a law, is it not? But you say to not consent to searches or seizures. The whole reason people ask for specific practical advice is because they don’t wanna get fucked over by the cops but also don’t wanna get fucked over for unintentionally pulling sovereign citizen like bullshit.
If you are operating a motor vehicle, you are required to hold a license to operate that vehicle. Ergo, if you are operating the vehicle, the police can ask for proof of your licensure to operate that vehicle, and you are reauired to produce it. That is not covered under search and seizure.
Then people giving this sort of practical advice should explicitly say that lest someone get arrested for failure to present a license or whatever.
But sir, this doesn’t sound like protect and serve at all!
Courts have ruled that the police have absolutely no duty to protect and serve you. That shit is a slogan. The reality is that they exist to protect capital and serve capitalists. Cops are class traitors, punishing anybody who steals or threatens value of capital. Some cops do some good, but that isn’t and never was the real intent.
I have seen a video of police playing basketball with the community, problem solved?
Important addition: don’t just shut the fuck up.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, tell the officers so they don’t think you’re about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an “I want a lawyer, dawg” situation.
in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense
There’s nowhere in the US that is true without reasonable, articulable suspicion (Terry v Ohio)
explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights.
You really don’t need to do that unless you’ve already started answering questions, but it is good practice.
Keep in mind that the cops don’t have to provide you with their reasonable suspicion in order to demand ID. It’s not until court that they have to provide their reasonable suspicion. So they have plenty of time to come up with justification after the fact.
Also, on the Fifth Amendment I thought I had read somewhere about a case where a man simply remained silent and never once invoked his right and it didn’t end well for him. I cannot remember the details, but for some reason I thought that you still had to invoke the fifth even if you have not yet answered any questions. I’ll have to look back into this later and post back if I find the story.
Not something I expected to look up today Context
Thank you!
It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog
FYI thats illegal (US vs. Rodriguez)
being arrested while they conduct their investigation
Detained*
They can’t detain you in the US for the purpose of conducting an investigation
They can in a few states. Delaware, for instance, where the law provides them two hours even without having to clear the bar of reasonable suspicion. This is of couse blatantly unconstitutional, but it’s still a state law.
…what? That’s the only reason they detain you…
what is the best way to refuse to do this?
try to be as white as possible.
They definitely slam white people’s heads into the ground for telling them no, too.
Not always.
If you’re not white, it is ALWAYS.
but black people are free practice targets to them
Just the act of refusing makes the act of seizing your phone legal or not. If you legally give them your phone by your own will, they are able to use all evidence they find in the courts. If you deny to give them your phone, and they seize it anyways and access it you have a valid path to throw the evidence they discover out as an illegal search and seizure of your property. I’m not a lawyer but that is the general thought process on denying them access to your property.
Never thought about it this way. Thanks!
Oh man that was fucking hilarious! Thanks for making my night!
Q: Is it shut the fuck up Friday?
A: It’s always shut the fuck up Friday.
Mobile youtube links, gross
Sounds like someone could use some more shut the fuck up Friday in their life 😘
“what’s a phone?”
“I don’t know why my fingerprint isn’t working” (biometrics are disabled)
“I don’t remember my passcode” (it’s a pattern input field)
“The guy at the phone place changed it for me”
“It’s never really worked right.”
“There’s no Google on it tho.” (What does this even mean?)
“Who do you need to call anyway?”
“Can’t you just use your own phone?”
Just act like the dumbest creature on earth.
And if you’re Black - get shot for “talking back”
This is how you go to prison.
input the wrong password like 5 times to lock up the phone then say its muscle memory and you don’t remember the password numbers
It depends a lot on your location on the planet.
And skin color
My wife, a person who passes for pale white, refused to allow a police officer to investigate her car after a speeding ticket. I wasn’t here. Her car apparently "matched a description " but they had nothing. She told me they spend another 15 minutes having her sit on the shoulder, then let her off.
I drove with my family through the south. Had two kids in the car. I’m also brown. No reason to be pulled over, but I did have plates from Ohio since it was a rental. Shitty cop said there’s a lot of folks “in his parts” that smuggle drugs using rentals and kods and demanded I open the trunk. I kept saying I’m trying to visit my family, I got kids in the car. 20 minutes with a crying kid, In frustration, I relented, showed him the empty trunk.
Disable biometrics and mention your password.
Android: look up “lockdown mode”
iOS: hold volume down + power, or press power 5 times fast.
Better: restart the phone. This puts it into the safest state it has, as it has not yet been initially unlocked and will require a non-bio auth. Stronger security, may/should hold if they attempt to attack/hack/compromise it, if it comes to that. Takes like 3 seconds. Do it, not the equal-time-worse-security version of just disabling bio.
You can be polite and decline consent without resisting. “I do not consent to any searches or seizures”. If it’s taken from you illegally then anything they find is inadmissible in court. If it’s taken from you legally, ain’t shit you can do anyway.
Depends on local laws, but if the cops ability to seize your property without warrant isn’t protected by local laws:
Ask if they have a warrant and if they don’t then take your phone off and power it down, then put it back in your pocket and tell them they can direct complaints to your lawyer because you’re not handing over any devices.
If they seize it without a lawyer then you can sue the department, although if they have reasonable suspicion
In the states, they’ll just accuse the phone of committing a crime and take it anyways
In 2015 they took a black man’s car and he took them for 1.25 Million.
I imagine something like “I do not consent to a search nor seizure of any of my property. May I reach into my pocket so I may place my phone in plain view? If my property is going to be seized even against my will, I still want to ensure everyone’s safety.”
Then repeat the no consent line as you place your phone on your dashboard or whatever.
I imagine this means your lawyer will have body cam footage of the double nonconsent and the judge will see you were willing to comply even with potentially unlawful orders so the justice system could sort it out in court instead of someone trying to fight it out on the street.
If you absolutely have to hand over your phone, turn it off completely, like hold the power button and then tap the off icon. That will dump any keys out of RAM, which is why it always requires the full password to unlock when you turn it back on. Both in terms of how your phone works and the leaks we’ve seen, the cracking tools the police have are overall significantly less likely to be successful when used on a phone that’s been turned off and not unlocked since.
Also, IIRC iphones have a feature where they will dump at least some of the system keys from RAM if you push the lock button five times. I’d still trust fully off more but that’s easier to do covertly.
Five times wanted to set off an emergency service call and sound the alarm 🚨 YMMV (Pixel 7)
Additionally, with the Pixel 9 holding down the power button no longer turns it off, you have to press power and volume up at the same time to get to the power menu.
There’s usually a hardware level power off function for when the device freezes and stuff. Can usually hold the power button for ~10 seconds will power off the device without needing to look at the screen
That can be changed in the settings
I had no idea… thank you! It’s always a crapshoot if I take a screenshot or get into the power settings. So bizarre.
power and volume down does screenshots
Power and Volume DOWN would make infinitely more sense for “power DOWN” function.
Holding the power button for 1 second also opens the menu.
My country has made it illegal to not give your keys.
Sounds like it’s time for the deniably encrypted phone.
Would be cool to have a second account or storage that unlocked with a different PIN. Load it up with porn and embarrassing search histories.
What county is this, so I know to avoid it?
A lot countries have this now.
Even for a number of countries where it’s not technically enshrined in law, police can still effectively do it anyway, by detaining you for as long as they like until you comply.
The solution is to simply shit yourself, without breaking eye contact, while under their custody to assert dominance.
UK
Edit, source: https://www.saunders.co.uk/news/prosecuted-for-your-password/
Can’t I just say I forgot my pin? They can’t prove I don’t have a shit memory.
Good luck https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-25745989
Nah, can’t be, they said it was a European one and the UK voted to no longer be part of Europe. /s
Incidentally, the European court for human rights said that that law violated the ECHR convention.
The UK said “yeah, so what?”, which since they’ve left the EC it’s legally right, but it’s not a great outlook when you’re told your laws violate human rights.
Also on Android press the power button and volume up button simultaneously, and then press lockdown.
Mark my words.
For many of us, this is a “No shit Sherlock” moment.
But in 10 years, we will have young people going “Uh what really?”
Remember when we used to say, “Don’t put your name on the internet?” And now it’s everywhere?
Yeah I remember the early days of the internet when no one used their real name and we had relationships with dozens of people who we had no idea where they lived and what their real names were.
It seems quaint, but I kinda liked it like that.
That was like the biggest thing i learned in computer class, that i already knew in 2002 or so. Later myspace became a thing, and everyone had a myspace name. Then facebook and some people used their real name. Then facebook asked you for your phone number, and i thought: well, that’s silly, who in their right mind would do that. Turns out the answer is everyone.
Remember when we used to say, “Don’t put your name on the internet?” And now it’s everywhere?
Mine isn’t, go ahead and look it up. You won’t find my name anywhere in the internet.
Here it is encrypted so only you can read it: >!John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt!<
Hey what the heck? How did you get my Lemmy password?
All I see is *******
Hunter2
This meme is 20 years old now, I bet there are kids repeating it who weren’t alive when it was first made and don’t even know where it comes from.
Well, bash.org is gone, so…
Woah that’s my name too
When are you going out?
To add to this, don’t use bio-metrics to lock your devices. Cops will “accidentally” use these to unlock devices when they are forcibly seized.
Or just know how to enable lockdown mode. On iOS that’s 5 rapid clicks of the power button, screen on or off, and it vibrates to let you know you got it without looking. Dunno what it might be for android, or if it varies by model.
It ends up like a newly rebooted phone; requires a typed passcode. It also provides quick links to medical ID info and the sos emergency call thing. It may, if you have an ID set up, also have a link to that, but I don’t have that configured so not super sure.
I personally rather trust that my device isn’t able to be unlocked without my permission, rather than hope I am able to do some action to disable it in certain situations. The availability of such features is nice, but I would assume I would be incapable of performing such actions in the moment.
My other thought is, how guilty is one perceived if they immediately attempt to lock their phones in such a matter, by a jury of their peers? I rather go the deniability route of I didn’t want to share my passcode vs I locked my phone down cause the cops were grabbing me.
For most phones, just rebooting it will drop it back to bio + passcode. That’s the quick method for me.
This will also put the device in the “before first unlock” state, which will make it harder to extract data, even with physical access. After first unlock some data might be accessed even without the passcode when connecting the phone to a computer
This is good to know, but adds an additional step to simply requiring a passcode to unlock on screen lock.
(On Android five clicks on the lock screen makes an emergency call)
But… “Apple bad!”
Yes, Apple is bad. They are a tax-dodging multi-trillion-dollar company. They are not good. They are not your friend.
Android phones have this feature as well btw lol
Google IS your friend?
Where did I say that?
You seem to be looking at this like a console fanboy. Me criticising Apple does not mean I’m a fan of Google.
Just stop
no
If you reboot your phone, the first unlock can’t use biometrics
You can also set it up so biometrics can be used by apps but not to unlock the phone. That way it’s easy to get to your apps and such but trivially more difficult to unlock.
But aPpLe CaRe AbOuT pRiVaCy
All this makes it sound like police are giving you a bunch of time to respond and addressing you politely.
I mean, I agree on the principle. Don’t just hand your phone over to… anyone, really. But the game becomes very different when a guy with a gun is hassling you over it.
The more comments and news I read about the US the more Orwellian it feels.
You guys really need a massive left-shift away from the omnipresent government which regulates bodies more than companies.
Oh sorry instead we’re going to get fascism
The whole Western world is at this point, it’s so depressing. Even when the left seems to win democratically people like Macron nakedly abuse their authority and choose to caucus with the fascists over the social democrats.
At some point, someone is going to figure out George Orwell was actually a time traveler, and he tried to fix things with books. He had to deliver the message that way because if he just shouted in the streets the things that were going to happen, he’d been written off as a madman. Change a few details here and there… and then sell it as “fiction”…
Frankly, George Orwell is part of the problem. Aside from a brief stint during the Spanish Civil War where he supported the CNT-FAI, he spent the overwhelming majority of his life supporting the British Empire and relentlessly hating Communists (and other socialists and members of minority groups) of all stripes, to the point where even the British government told him to chill the fuck out because they were allied with the Soviets. His books aren’t immensely popular in extremely right wing countries because they have a left wing critique of government overreach, they’re popular because they are anti-government in exactly the same vague and malleable way that all populist right wingers are.
I have been to a few spots over there and it is crazy how different culturally it is. Nothing is away from politics and cops get called fot eeeeverything.
Reminder: If you are in a situation where you’re presenting a digital ID to a digital ID reader, do not unlock your phone first. Tap your locked phone on the ID reader, then authenticate the document share.
Duh.
Pro tip, if you suspect the police are going to take your phone, turn it off. As far as I am aware, finger print and face id do not work on initial startup and they can’t compel you to enter your pin without a warrant.
*counsel you. I’m picturing a police officer comforting a suspect who’s sobbing with a hand on their shoulder haha.
Not counsel, compel actually. But either way, definitely not console! Ha
What’s a lemon party? I should Google it.
Election season is right around the corner, join us! Lemonparty.org
Double check this in the state or country you’re in. I recall something from a few years ago where the police could force you to give a swipe pattern and maybe pin since these items are not covered in the same way that a password is.
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Maybe in some countries but in a western one they aren’t getting a pattern or passcode unless you verbally give it to them. We do know though that there is some level of capability to crack phones though.
Is article mixing things or am I missing something?
You don’t need to hand over your phone to present a digital ID. At least in my country the digital ID just creates a qr that the cop can scan to verify. There is no reason to hand over anything on the whole process.
Brazil? I do miss being able to leave home bringing only my phone because my ID and cards are all there
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Does your phone need to be unlocked to show that qr code?
Of course. But if a police officer were to remove your phone by force, first it would be illegal without a warrant so it would almost made you a favour as all evidence in your phone would be invalid in court.
Then if they just want to remove by force, with or without warrant, they can just take it from your pocket. Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
Following the same logic, should we never have an unlocked phone near a police officer? I don’t know about that.
And if you are just that paranoid I would probably be easy to just have a second profile on your phone just for the ID. And you are the same as if having the phone locked as password is needed for changing profiles.
Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
I think some of the concern is when cops will use force illegally and then lie about it, so they wouldn’t necessarily have access to forensics.
Like taking your phone and go through your WhatsApp messages?
If that’s a concern you could set up a password to access any sensible app or chat within that app.
I think that is a more sensible approach. As if you are targeted by any reason an undercover cop could get a hold on your unlocked phone by many different ways.
Seems like a good use for android app pinning, I think that locks the phone to that app until unlocked
But if a police officer were to remove your phone by force, first it would be illegal without a warrant so it would almost made you a favour as all evidence in your phone would be invalid in court.
Even if what they find on your phone isn’t valid in court, it can still lead them to other things that are valid. For instance, a picture taken at a specific place with a timestamp. That picture may not be admissible, but if they find CCTV footage of you at that time and place, you’re screwed.
Cops can and will overreach their powers, and they’ll probably get away with it.
Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
Sure, but it’s a lot harder for them if your phone is encrypted and shut off before you encounter them.
Following the same logic, should we never have an unlocked phone near a police officer? I don’t know about that.
You really shouldn’t. Cops are never on your side.
You really shouldn’t. Cops are never on your side.
I mean never is a strong word here. People are saved by cops every day. At least in my country. Just looking today news: women was arrested after being violent towards doctors in La Palma. Pretty sure doctors though cops were on their side.
You have to be sure to defend your citizen rights and prosecuted rights (if it even become to that). But that does not conflict to call the cops if you need to and if you are being victim of a crime they’ll most likely help you. Once again, that’s how it is where I live.
I will admit I’m making some strong, harsh statements. But I think that’s a pretty natural result of living in the U.S., a country who’s cops operate closer to a gang than Rescue Heroes. They kill minorities with virtual immunity. They racially profile people. The list goes on.
Somebody who intentionally joins a group like that does not have good intentions, or is ok with their buddies not having good intentions, or gets kicked out quickly for tattling on their fellow cops. So yeah, cops are never on your side, at least not here.
No shit
It’s not possible not to it you want to visit USA. If you don’t, they’ll reject your visa or deny entry. Thr only way is to use brand new cheap android before or after ( after is better ) and resell it once you go back. Most corporations do so
*especially if you’ve got nothing to hide.
For iOS. You can just hold down the lock and volume up button and it will require your passcode. 5x lock works too but I feel the former is easier.
You can show your wallet with your phone locked. Settings > Face ID & Passcode > Allow access when locked > Wallet
Or you could just hit restart on the phone and at least on android it asks for the code first before enabling finger print or face ID.
For Android:
- Open Settings
- Search for “Lockdown”
- Select “Show Lockdown option” from the results, or the result that most resembles that.
- Enter your pin if required.
- Tap the associated slider to enable Show lockdown option
Now when you hold your power button, you get a “lockdown” option that disables biometrics and forces you to enter your passcode for the next unlock.
Particularly useful for me, as I have my phone set up to always be unlocked if my watch is close enough (maybe stupid of me), but I can force lock it at any time.
On some phones you won’t get anything when searching for “lockdown” but you most likely have it, it’s typically under Display > Lock screen > Shown lockdown option.
